My problem with Bisqwit's NES site. (Not what you think)

2005-02-05 02:50:55 am

This is completely off-topic and random, so don't tell me this was a worthless and pointless post to make; I am already well aware of that. Sometimes I post things just because I feel like getting it off my chest, even if it is something very minor and inconsequential.

I have something I want to say about Bisqwit's Time Attack site, simply because it crossed my mind and I feel the need to post it somewhere. Something about that site bothers me, but my problem with the site is very different from other people's.

My problem is, I can't stand how euphemistic they are in their language. They try to sugar-coat a lot of things to try and distort reality. "Tool-assisted?" Am I mistaken, or does this sound somewhat similar to EMULATED? That's the kind of thing I mean. A long time ago, the latter half of Red Scarlet's farewell topic on GameFAQs turned into a debate between a few people (including me) and some time attackers, debating on whether or not time attacks are "cheating." These guys couldn't really think for themselves... they resorted to copy/pasting and using that as their argument, whether it was the Why/How page at Bisqwit's or the dictionary definition of cheating. I don't have a problem at all with these videos. They are a good source of guidance for speed runs, and some are downright fun to watch. But don't act like you're not doing something that you are. Beating Dragon Warrior in under half an hour cannot be considered anything other than cheating, as far as I'm concerned. These guys seemed so defensive about it because they couldn't think of a nicer word for "cheat," something with a more positive connotation.

But when you've been around the English language long enough, you'll know that our language, our words, and how we use them is constantly changing. In the world of video games, usage of a third-party program or device is considered cheating, or illegitimate. This goes back to the days of the Game Genie, and the concept includes emulation, and even seemingly harmless advantages, such as the maphack in Diablo II. This doesn't mean what time attackers are doing is wrong. Not at all. Keep at it, I say. But stop trying to twist the English language to make yourselves look better.

I enjoy time attacks and speed runs alike, but let's be a little more direct with our language here, rather than dancing around the issue at hand. I think time attackers would get a lot less hate if they used words like "emulated" rather than "tool-assisted."

Thread title:

This is completely off-topic and random, so don't tell me this was a worthless and pointless post to make; I am already well aware of that. Sometimes I post things just because I feel like getting it off my chest, even if it is something very minor and inconsequential.

I have something I want to say about Bisqwit's Time Attack site, simply because it crossed my mind and I feel the need to post it somewhere. Something about that site bothers me, but my problem with the site is very different from other people's.

My problem is, I can't stand how euphemistic they are in their language. They try to sugar-coat a lot of things to try and distort reality. "Tool-assisted?" Am I mistaken, or does this sound somewhat similar to [b]EMULATED[/b]? That's the kind of thing I mean. A long time ago, the latter half of Red Scarlet's farewell topic on GameFAQs turned into a debate between a few people (including me) and some time attackers, debating on whether or not time attacks are "cheating." These guys couldn't really think for themselves... they resorted to copy/pasting and using that as their argument, whether it was the Why/How page at Bisqwit's or the dictionary definition of cheating. I don't have a problem at all with these videos. They are a good source of guidance for speed runs, and some are downright fun to watch. But don't act like you're not doing something that you are. Beating Dragon Warrior in under half an hour cannot be considered anything other than cheating, as far as I'm concerned. These guys seemed so defensive about it because they couldn't think of a nicer word for "cheat," something with a more positive connotation.

But when you've been around the English language long enough, you'll know that our language, our words, and how we use them is constantly changing. In the world of video games, usage of a third-party program or device is considered cheating, or illegitimate. This goes back to the days of the Game Genie, and the concept includes emulation, and even seemingly harmless advantages, such as the maphack in Diablo II. This doesn't mean what time attackers are doing is wrong. Not at all. Keep at it, I say. But stop trying to twist the English language to make yourselves look better.

I enjoy time attacks and speed runs alike, but let's be a little more direct with our language here, rather than dancing around the issue at hand. I think time attackers would get a lot less hate if they used words like "emulated" rather than "tool-assisted."

ajbolt89

2005-02-05 03:13:21 am

lol no way

Well said, the way they try to twist the words around to make it seem like it's not cheating is one of the main problems people have with their community. And how they're so defensive about it; if you posted this topic at Bisqwit's site, you'd get flamed and Bisqwit himself would delete the topic and any posts made by anyone who's not a "tool-assisted" player. I suppose I should quote player too; they're not really playing the game.

Red Scarlet

2005-02-05 03:13:29 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Yeah, the Dragon Warrior 1 vid shows just the level of wtf it can be taken with.

nate

2005-02-05 03:16:14 am

yeah, notice this often, guess i'm just a language-addicted person. you know that when people beat themselves up to avoid saying something, they're beating themselves up to avoid thinking something. it will be very interesting to see how all this pans out over the next few years. something tells me that their denial might not last forever.

mangadood

2005-02-05 04:09:55 am

Too many fangirls to count

It can be emulated and not tool assisted. They should say "emulated/tool assisted". I do enjoy watching their emulated runs, yet trying to decieve someone into thinking that it is fair is wrong.

TSA

2005-02-05 05:54:30 am

I always felt devices like GameGenie and Action Replay were marketed as "cheat devices". They allow you to alter coding and programming to give you effects not intended by the creators.

However, what is the Konami Code, then? Though it doesn't require a device, it is still a code that modifies the game. Is using the Konami code in Contra to have 30 lives, or to get infinite ammo in another, cheating?

I always felt that how the game plays as is, meaning no modifications, was the way a game should be played to be fair. Codes, devices, etc...were all cheating. But now you can alter difficulty, change controls, etc. Again, these are options made avaiable to you. But codes are also planned for...

However, how I see it is this: If it is made a seen option in the game, then it is legit and not cheating. This applies to option menus and such. But then, what about password options?

You can spend an eternity arguing what is cheating in a game. It's not clearly defined in video games. In Baseball, you have defined rules. Doing anything outside of these rules is cheating.

I do not know of any universal laws/rules of playing video games or speed running.

So, until I know or see some written official laws of speed running, I don't know what cheating is except on a case by case basis. I know SDA's rules, I know TG's rules. So according to TG and SDA's rules, the people who use emulators to produce videos with altered gameplay are cheating.

Then again, they're not submitting the videos to either entity. I also have a problem with all these terms. Tool-assisted. What the hell is that? I use a hori pad vs a GBA or GCN controller when doing runs on GameBoy Player. It's a tool. So is that a tool-assisted run? Or if I use a hammer to hit my GCN to start up? A hammer is a tool...

Why not just call them what they are. They make Altered Gameplay Videos/Run. That means, altering the gameplay beyond what it was meant to do. This accomodates codes. This accomodates cheat devices. This accomodates save states and slow downs. Just using an emulator doesn't cut it.

So what do we call the "legit runs". Natural Gameplay Videos/Run. The way a game is naturally supposed to be played. I know these terms run into meaning issues, but I see them as less confusing than tool-assited, time-attack, and speed run.

So, I submit a new run to SDA. It's a NGV - Fastest Completion. The Bisqwit forum guys make a new video. It's an AGV - Fastest Completion. You just change the ending part for High Score, No Damage, etc.

I mean, you could do Modified Gameplay Video/Run or something. Just need to make it clear the gameplay is altered - by some device or cheat. For those arguing the meaning of natural - it's the way the creators meant for you to play a game. So for say, Super Metroid: It's on a Nintendoe Console or System.

You run into issues with legal emulators and stuff...but if it is a legal emulator, then its the way it was meant to be played. Just the settings need to be what the rules say. Or else, it's altered gameplay.

Eh, very long winded. So in summary:

1. There are many definitions of cheating
2. There is no universal definition for cheating in gaming
3. There are no universal rules for speed runs
4. Should try to describe videos/runs to be more mutually exclusive and all-inclusive
5. There will always be exceptions

I always felt devices like GameGenie and Action Replay were marketed as "cheat devices".  They allow you to alter coding and programming to give you effects not intended by the creators.

However, what is the Konami Code, then?  Though it doesn't require a device, it is still a code that modifies the game.  Is using the Konami code in Contra to have 30 lives, or to get infinite ammo in another, cheating?

I always felt that how the game plays as is, meaning no modifications, was the way a game should be played to be fair.  Codes, devices, etc...were all cheating.  But now you can alter difficulty, change controls, etc.  Again, these are options made avaiable to you.  But codes are also planned for...

However, how I see it is this:  If it is made a seen option in the game, then it is legit and not cheating.  This applies to option menus and such.  But then, what about password options?

You can spend an eternity arguing what is cheating in a game.  It's not clearly defined in video games.  In Baseball, you have defined rules.  Doing anything outside of these rules is cheating.

I do not know of any universal laws/rules of playing video games or speed running.

So, until I know or see some written official laws of speed running, I don't know what cheating is except on a case by case basis.  I know SDA's rules, I know TG's rules.  So according to TG and SDA's rules, the people who use emulators to produce videos with altered gameplay are cheating.

Then again, they're not submitting the videos to either entity.  I also have a problem with all these terms.  Tool-assisted.  What the hell is that?  I use a hori pad vs a GBA or GCN controller when doing runs on GameBoy Player.  It's a tool.  So is that a tool-assisted run?  Or if I use a hammer to hit my GCN to start up?  A hammer is a tool...

Why not just call them what they are.  They make Altered Gameplay Videos/Run.  That means, altering the gameplay beyond what it was meant to do.  This accomodates codes.  This accomodates cheat devices.  This accomodates save states and slow downs.  Just using an emulator doesn't cut it.

So what do we call the "legit runs".  Natural Gameplay Videos/Run.  The way a game is naturally supposed to be played.  I know these terms run into meaning issues, but I see them as less confusing than tool-assited, time-attack, and speed run.

So, I submit a new run to SDA.  It's a NGV - Fastest Completion.  The Bisqwit forum guys make a new video. It's an AGV - Fastest Completion.  You just change the ending part for High Score, No Damage, etc.

I mean, you could do Modified Gameplay Video/Run or something.  Just need to make it clear the gameplay is altered - by some device or cheat.  For those arguing the meaning of natural - it's the way the creators meant for you to play a game.  So for say, Super Metroid:  It's on a Nintendoe Console or System.

You run into issues with legal emulators and stuff...but if it is a legal emulator, then its the way it was meant to be played.  Just the settings need to be what the rules say.  Or else, it's altered gameplay.

Eh, very long winded.  So in summary:

1. There are many definitions of cheating
2. There is no universal definition for cheating in gaming
3. There are no universal rules for speed runs
4. Should try to describe videos/runs to be more mutually exclusive and all-inclusive
5. There will always be exceptions

Mafus

2005-02-05 08:42:02 am

This certainly isn't the first topic I'd expect to see TSA make his first post in.

I say meh, who cares what they call it, the people that download the "tool-assisted" runs know exactly what they are watching, it's certainly not hidden that they are run on an emulator with slowdown and savestates so what is the issue?

nate

2005-02-05 01:52:10 pm

Quote from TSA:

So, I submit a new run to SDA. It's a NGV - Fastest Completion. The Bisqwit forum guys make a new video. It's an AGV - Fastest Completion. You just change the ending part for High Score, No Damage, etc.

i like this, actually. let's say sda took over bisquit's operation and started distributing the "agv" runs. such runs would now be clearly marked and explained - on a separate game list, even, and confusion about them would sharply decrease, especially if sda became the only place to get them. knowing radix, he wouldn't pull any punches with his language (see first post in this thread), and it would just be a better situation for everyone.

however, i would not put them on dvd.

Quote from TSA:

You run into issues with legal emulators and stuff...but if it is a legal emulator, then its the way it was meant to be played. Just the settings need to be what the rules say. Or else, it's altered gameplay.

don't agree with this. first of all, the only emulator i know of that could one day be interpreted as illegal (and the people using it as criminals) is silhouette, because if it really was an internal nintendo project that was not intended to be released, then its existence on people's drives could be interpreted as stealing trade secrets. it's extremely doubtful silhouette will go to court now, since it's been out for years, but still, it was a pretty tense situation when it first "emerged."

the roms, on the other hand, are in 99.9999999% of cases (certainly those of agv runs) illegal, a good reason for sda to never acknowledge adv runs as i suggested earlier. i realize that sometimes important social changes come from a fringe element that exists outside of the law, but i don't think that this effect somehow requires us to do anything for them, such as acknowledge that they exist and set them alongside ngv runs.

keep in mind that things will not always be as they are now. eventually sda will dwarf the emu rapes in terms of runs available at a time and "trendiness" (which is a whole topic in itself, as it won't be a 100% good thing for speed running at all), since you apparently can't do something illegal and be on the news and so on and have it labeled "trendy." (it will be labeled "illegal.") real businesses aren't going to touch emu rape, whereas seeing amazing new natural speed records on the nightly news in the future is very much conceivable, at least by me.

[quote="TSA"]So, I submit a new run to SDA.  It's a NGV - Fastest Completion.  The Bisqwit forum guys make a new video. It's an AGV - Fastest Completion.  You just change the ending part for High Score, No Damage, etc.[/quote]
i like this, actually. let's say sda took over bisquit's operation and started distributing the "agv" runs. such runs would now be clearly marked and explained - on a separate game list, even, and confusion about them would sharply decrease, especially if sda became the [i]only[/i] place to get them. knowing radix, he wouldn't pull any punches with his language (see first post in this thread), and it would just be a better situation for everyone.

however, i would not put them on dvd.

[quote="TSA"]You run into issues with legal emulators and stuff...but if it is a legal emulator, then its the way it was meant to be played.  Just the settings need to be what the rules say.  Or else, it's altered gameplay.[/quote]
don't agree with this. first of all, the only emulator i know of that could one day be interpreted as illegal (and the people using it as criminals) is silhouette, because if it really was an internal nintendo project that was not intended to be released, then its existence on people's drives could be interpreted as stealing trade secrets. it's extremely doubtful silhouette will go to court now, since it's been out for years, but still, it was a pretty tense situation when it first "emerged."

the roms, on the other hand, are in 99.9999999% of cases (certainly those of agv runs) illegal, a good reason for sda to never acknowledge adv runs as i suggested earlier. i realize that sometimes important social changes come from a fringe element that exists outside of the law, but i don't think that this effect somehow requires us to do anything for them, such as acknowledge that they exist and set them alongside ngv runs.

keep in mind that things will not always be as they are now. eventually sda will dwarf the emu rapes in terms of runs available at a time and "trendiness" (which is a whole topic in itself, as it won't be a 100% good thing for speed running at all), since you apparently can't do something illegal and be on the news and so on and have it labeled "trendy." (it will be labeled "illegal.") real businesses aren't going to touch emu rape, whereas seeing amazing new natural speed records on the nightly news in the future is very much conceivable, at least by me.

Izo

2005-02-05 03:19:45 pm

soaking through

Quote from njahnke:

whereas seeing amazing new natural speed records on the nightly news in the future is very much conceivable, at least by me.

You <i>have</i> been working too hard.

Yoshi348

2005-02-05 04:10:11 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Hey, they pull all kinds of crap on a slow news day.

GreenMamba

2005-02-05 04:11:33 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

"This just in, a beaver bit some hobo in the butt today. The hobo didn't like it one bit, and had to get three stitches. No word as of whether or not the buttocks tasted good or not."

tomatobob

2005-02-05 04:54:52 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

There was something like that on the news once, only it involved a theif, a police dog and the severing of his umm.... Houston. >_>

TSA

2005-02-05 05:47:43 pm

I meant ROMs, Nate...heh. Emulators are legal except in the case you said, but ROMs aren't. So playing a ROM is illegal (at this point). I don't deny you can play say, Zelda on an emulator and do a legit speed run. So I guess that falls into the natural definition as well. As long as you are replicating the environment originally created for the player by gamers, it's fine and natural.

However, once you start using those emulator features...it's not the same.

nate

2005-02-05 06:46:00 pm

except for those emulators which led to The Banning, e.g. visual boy advance, which are so shoddy you can't help but play in slow motion, etc.

TSA

2005-02-05 07:38:33 pm

Ah, nice.

One mistake I think. You can't even copy your own games if you own them. Making a digital copy, even if you own it, is illegal, last time I read. You can't even make a CD-R backup of a CD. under the DMCA.

arkarian

2005-02-05 07:40:38 pm

red chamber dream

Uhm, I'm pretty sure you can make a backup copy of your own CD.

TSA

2005-02-05 07:45:39 pm

Actually, as of 2003, when I had a class on this, you couldn't. It may have been ammended.

You can't make a back-up of your cd. You can't sing (C) music in public. You can't even blast your radio too loud so other people hear it.

Those were all illegal as of that time.

nate

2005-02-05 07:56:49 pm

it's important to distinguish between copying a disc and circumventing copy protection in order to copy that disc. you are allowed to do the former once under the dmca; if you do the latter, under the dmca you will go to jail.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-5128652.html

arkarian

2005-02-05 08:02:44 pm

red chamber dream

Wow, those are the dumbest rules I've ever heard. I've sung copywrited music in public, copied copywrited CD's AND played my radio too loud. But I'm not arrested yet...oh well!

nate

2005-02-05 08:05:04 pm

yes, the us is slowly creeping closer to a more european model of law, where the law says one thing and the populace often does the opposite, and everyone gets along fine.

Lucid Faia

2005-02-05 09:09:21 pm

Quote from TSA:

I always felt devices like GameGenie and Action Replay were marketed as "cheat devices". They allow you to alter coding and programming to give you effects not intended by the creators.

However, what is the Konami Code, then? Though it doesn't require a device, it is still a code that modifies the game. Is using the Konami code in Contra to have 30 lives, or to get infinite ammo in another, cheating?

I always felt that how the game plays as is, meaning no modifications, was the way a game should be played to be fair. Codes, devices, etc...were all cheating. But now you can alter difficulty, change controls, etc. Again, these are options made avaiable to you. But codes are also planned for...

However, how I see it is this: If it is made a seen option in the game, then it is legit and not cheating. This applies to option menus and such. But then, what about password options?

You can spend an eternity arguing what is cheating in a game. It's not clearly defined in video games. In Baseball, you have defined rules. Doing anything outside of these rules is cheating.

I do not know of any universal laws/rules of playing video games or speed running.

So, until I know or see some written official laws of speed running, I don't know what cheating is except on a case by case basis. I know SDA's rules, I know TG's rules. So according to TG and SDA's rules, the people who use emulators to produce videos with altered gameplay are cheating.

Then again, they're not submitting the videos to either entity. I also have a problem with all these terms. Tool-assisted. What the hell is that? I use a hori pad vs a GBA or GCN controller when doing runs on GameBoy Player. It's a tool. So is that a tool-assisted run? Or if I use a hammer to hit my GCN to start up? A hammer is a tool...

Why not just call them what they are. They make Altered Gameplay Videos/Run. That means, altering the gameplay beyond what it was meant to do. This accomodates codes. This accomodates cheat devices. This accomodates save states and slow downs. Just using an emulator doesn't cut it.

So what do we call the "legit runs". Natural Gameplay Videos/Run. The way a game is naturally supposed to be played. I know these terms run into meaning issues, but I see them as less confusing than tool-assited, time-attack, and speed run.

So, I submit a new run to SDA. It's a NGV - Fastest Completion. The Bisqwit forum guys make a new video. It's an AGV - Fastest Completion. You just change the ending part for High Score, No Damage, etc.

I mean, you could do Modified Gameplay Video/Run or something. Just need to make it clear the gameplay is altered - by some device or cheat. For those arguing the meaning of natural - it's the way the creators meant for you to play a game. So for say, Super Metroid: It's on a Nintendoe Console or System.

You run into issues with legal emulators and stuff...but if it is a legal emulator, then its the way it was meant to be played. Just the settings need to be what the rules say. Or else, it's altered gameplay.

Eh, very long winded. So in summary:

1. There are many definitions of cheating
2. There is no universal definition for cheating in gaming
3. There are no universal rules for speed runs
4. Should try to describe videos/runs to be more mutually exclusive and all-inclusive
5. There will always be exceptions

Of course the Konami Code is a cheat. Whether it was put there intentionally not is irrelevant. Even when it's put in the game intentionally, it is referred to as a cheat by the game itself. Examples: Perfect Dark, GTA, etc. But that doesn't mean you're doing something wrong; many games which have labelled "cheats" encourage you to try them out and have a little fun. My point was that using a third-party device to edit the gameplay is cheating, such as the Game Genie, Pro Action Replay, or emulation tools such as slowdown or save states. I'm not saying that's the only form of cheating, either.

As for the baseball analogy, it doesn't work. Companies like Galoob (Game Genie) marketed their products as "game enhancement devices," but eventually they were more direct, and now just refer to thema s cheat devices. It's obvious the companies that made the games consider them cheating; Nintendo once sued the makers of the Game Genie. There may be no universally accepted rules for speed running, but their are rules for the games themselves.

But I feel exactly the same as you on the terms of the runs. I loathe the new definition of "time attack," and have already made it quite clear that "tool-assisted" is an idiotic euphemism. Though I must say AGV and NGV are not the best terms you could think of, it's a definite step up from the time attack/speed run/superplay nonsense.

[quote="TSA"]I always felt devices like GameGenie and Action Replay were marketed as "cheat devices".  They allow you to alter coding and programming to give you effects not intended by the creators.